Guy Picciotto
No Need To Argue
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NATN: In the past three years, you guys released End Hits, and the "Instrument" movie and soundtrack. Did those projects influence the recording of the new album at all?
Guy Picciotto: To be honest, when we go in to make a record, each time it's kind of the same experience. We make records kind of rarely, and we're always just trying to document the music we've been working on. We're also trying to get better each time we do it. I don't think this record necessarily had a different feel for us in terms of working on it, except for the fact that it's now. We're not really self conscious about it when we're in the studio working. We're just trying to get the work down. It's not like we get really reflective, like, OK, we did this summation of our career with this movie and we feel like there is fresh terrain for us. We always feel like there's fresh terrain.
NATN: Does Fugazi revisit past albums or songs when working up new material?
GP: Not really. The funny thing is, we don't really listen to our records at all. We consider ourselves so much more of a live band, and we think about the songs in terms of performing them live. In the past, the records were really like this, because we recorded them so fast. The first few records we did in a few days each, tearing through them. They were almost kind of signposts along the way. Now, they're much more considered. We spend a lot more time on them. But at the same time, it's not like we go back and listen to End Hits and see what we're going to do differently. The only really honest difference on this record in terms of approach was that we decided to bring other people into the session with us to play. Our roadie Jerry [Busher] has been playing with us live for the last three years, so we wrote a lot of these songs with him in mind playing second drums. Once we got in the studio, ideas started occurring to us. I wanted to have some other voices on the record, so we did that. We also brought in a cello. Those were more spontaneous ideas. I think it was good for us.
It's funny. When we recorded Red Medicine, in the "Instrument" movie, we had Jem Cohen filming us while we recorded. I think that actually changed the process for us. It's not like you're performing for another person, but since there's another witness to it, it puts you on a different level of behavior. It almost makes you, I don't know, work in a different way. Not necessarily harder, but in a more conscious way. So I think Red Medicine actually benefited from being filmed, even though at the time we thought it was this incredible pain in the ass. In the end, it really wasn't. It added something to it. I think this did also. We had Jerry in there, and almost a sense that there's a witness to this and we can't be a bunch of shitheads [laughs].
NATN: How did Jerry become involved with the band?
GP: Jerry is someone we've known in town for a really long time. We actually tried to get him to work for us 10 years ago. At that time, he was doing other stuff. He's played with a lot of bands from here, like Fidelity Jones and All-Scars. He does a lot of projects, actually. He's a gunslinger. He started working for us as a roadie maybe about six years ago and has toured around the world with us. On End Hits, we had experimented a lot with Brendan double-tracking his drums. We realized, well shit, we have Jerry with us, and he's a great musician. It almost felt like we weren't maximizing his utility with us on the road. Initially, we just had him bring out a drum set and play on a few specific songs from End Hits. But in the spontaneity of the show, I remember looking over at him during certain songs and telling him to go sit behind the drums and play. We just kept adding things for him to do. He started playing trumpet, and now we've got him adding all sorts of electronics to the music. I feel like we're just beginning to tap into him as this extra weapon.
In terms of writing the songs, it's still really the four of us working. It hasn't gotten to the point really where he's bringing in musical ideas independent from the rest of us. That's what the rest of us do. Brendan writes tons of guitar and bass parts. At this stage, we've shown Jerry ideas, but I feel like the more we play together, the more it's going to open up.
NATN: Do members bring in more or less complete songs or is it much more of a purely collaborative process?
GP: When the band started, it grew in stages. It was really just Ian and Joe. The first record is stuff they had worked on and presented to the rest of the band. Once we got to Repeater and I started playing guitar, everything from that point on became pretty much completely collaborative. And the further on we got, it became almost impossible to tell who wrote what piece. It's such a mish-mash. There have been songs like "Do You Like Me?" where I actually wrote the lyrics and music, brought it to the band, and the band fleshed it out. But that is incredibly rare. We describe it as a gangland initiation where someone brings in a tiny piece and the rest of us beat the shit out of it. Once it limps around a little bit, we revisit it. Some of the songs on this new record we've had kicking around for.. I mean, the song "Epic Problem," we've been working on that for probably eight years. It's called "Epic Problem" for a reason.
I mean, it's a weird record, because some of the songs like "Epic Problem," parts of it have been around since the dawn of time. But then things like "Life And Limb" we actually wrote in the studio. For us, it's weird. We listen to the record and it's almost like geological time passing. We can kind of see stuff that happened immediately and the stuff that is brewing in our heads.
NATN: I know I've heard some of these songs played live in recent years.
GP: "Oh" has been around for awhile. "Oh" and "Cashout" are songs we've been playing live for a bit. We work in a weird way. We'll play new songs as soon as they're ready to go. A song like "Nightshop," we had a version of that that was really different than what's on the record. We played it live, but it didn't really work, so we forgot about it for awhile.
NATN: It seems like you guys are on a bit of a three-year plan between albums these days. What has contributed to this spread-out pace?
GP: It wasn't originally like that. When the band first started, we were touring more than we do now. We had an initial burst of songwriting that carried us for awhile. We were touring and recording pretty quickly, and it went at a really fast clip. At this point, we've expanded our touring range to cover not just Europe and the States, but South America, Australia, and the Far East. Our touring policy is to really try to cover things in sequence. We ended up in these really long touring cycles. But that's not the only reason between the records. At this point, we take a lot of time to write the stuff. We were working all the time writing between End Hits and the new record. A lot of stuff just never came together, because we're pretty hard on the material and we have a pretty intense filter. It takes us a long time at this point to get it together.
NATN: Along those lines, you guys are also not a big b-sides band. Are there worthy leftovers lying about?
PC: Yeah. Pieces of that we put on the "Instrument" soundtrack. Jem pulled them out of our tapes and just liked them and ended up using them. But there's a lot of tapes. As far as those seeing the light of day, most of the.. I don't know. Maybe. A lot of the stuff, there's a reason it didn't come out. It's just not altogether there. And lyrically, there are very, very few songs we have completed versions of that never came out. Our music writing is pretty uptight, but our lyric writing is really uptight. If a song gets to a point where it has a complete vocal on it, it usually comes out.
NATN: A song like "The Kill" -- it's so unusually low-key for Fugazi!
GP: It's an interesting song. It existed as a bass line for a short period before we went in to record, but the actual take is pretty much improvised. That's why it has a cool, different feel a little bit, because we really just went in and were playing around with it. I was using an Echoplex, which I normally don't use. It's a more spacious, more tripped-out track than what we normally do. Now, going back and trying to reproduce the thing on the record is more difficult [laughs]. That's one of Joe's songs. I guess it was Red Medicine where he first started singing. He's been coming up with really cool songs. I think he sings the backing vocal on "Oh."
NATN: "Oh" seems to address globalization, which many people point to as a reason for why the U.S. is viewed so negatively in certain parts of the world.
GP: Globalization is a weird phenomenon. On the one hand, I think events like Sept. 11 to the present have shown how America needs to be involved more in the world. I think a lot of people hadn't even thought about Middle Eastern issues and supporting things like the Taliban and then suddenly withdrawing support from Afghanistan and leaving the country in this weird black hole. People are starting to think about the way American behavior affects the rest of the world. We're living in a world right now where it's important that there is this cross-border understanding. That's one of the things that's crazy about the United States; ignorance about basic things going on in the rest of the world. It's alarming.
But at the same time, corporate globalization is another issue, and that's what the song is about. I don't know what to say without sounding trite, but it's obviously an issue of great concern. I don't know if ironic is the right word, but being here in D.C., there were supposed to be these IMF/World Bank protests right before Sept. 11. There was this really interesting cooperation going on between labor movements, environmental movements, and more traditional left-wing movements. That really got dissolved by these events because a lot of people on the far left are pushing their attention toward peace protests, which is something labor and environmental groups might not want to get involved in. This coalition got disrupted which was such a positive development; one of the most positive developments I can think of in the last 20 years.
NATN: Can you tell us what it has been like living in Washington, D.C., and experiencing the Pentagon attack so close to home?
GP: It's really weird. Joe heard the sound of the impact and he's the one that called me that morning and told me what was going on. The next few days, things were pretty intense in D.C. in terms of security. There were military police all through downtown. It's still strange here. It's a weird disconnect that's different from New York, where the damage was so much more intense and it affected the heart of the city. Here, the Pentagon is on the outskirts of the city. There was a weird pilgrimage of tourists going out to the Pentagon almost to try make it seem real to them.
Since the attacks, I have not left D.C., no. Our plan was not to play until next year, because Joe just had a kid. We wanted to let him adjust to being a dad for the first time. Everyone has pretty much been here. Reagan National Airport was closed for a couple of weeks, but it's back up and running.
NATN: Is there going to be a tour in support of the new album in the next few months?
GP: We don't really think of tours in support of record. We tour if we have a record out or not. It really depends more what is going on with everyone's lives. Brendan has two kids, and Joe just had a kid. That's the main thing we work around now. When they give us the go-ahead, we go play. This summer, we played up in Canada and out in the southwest. At this point, I think most of the tours will be two or three weeks long, and we'll just do them hit-and-miss.
NATN: The shows seem like they are completely different from night to night.
GP: Completely different. We go into this intense practice zone right before we go out on tour. We learn basically every song. I think there's four songs we don't know. We go out every night and make it up as we go along. Both Ian and I sing, so we alternate. Every night is different. There's a core bunch of songs we focus on, which are generally newer. Other times, we try to pull out as many obscurities as we can [laughs].
NATN: What about compiling some concert stuff for a live album?
GP: Yeah, we've talked about it a lot. We've taped every show since, I don't know, 1991 or maybe before. We have DATs of every single show. It's kind of ridiculous because we've never listened to any of them and we have this giant library. DAT is actually an unstable format so I don't know what the fuck we're going to do with them. I have this fantasy where we'll do this offer, where people could write and say, I saw you in New Mexico in 1997, and we'd be able to send them a CD of that show. I think at some point we'll try to do something like that: make the library available to people.
It's just a question of the infrastructure to do it. If the Web becomes easier to utilize, people could download the stuff. We could put it up once and people could just pick. But we're not technically that together. At some point, something will happen. I don't know if we'll necessarily release a live album, because I don't think any of us want to weed through it all and figure out what's good and what's bad. I like the idea more of shows being kept in their entirety. That's the thing I love about live performance. There's something that just evaporates. That's why I consider it such a different thing from making records. The thing is, live, we change the music around so much. There's so much room to improvise. A lot of the songs have been considerably reworked since their recorded versions.
NATN: I want to ask you about the oft-discussed title of End Hits. A lot of people instantly assumed it was a hint that it would be the last Fugazi album. Now, the new album cover has torch being passed to nobody in particular, and is titled The Argument...
GP: It's funny. Even before End Hits, there have always been things people picked up on that signaled the apparent end of the band. We've been on the edge of the cliff so long in many people's minds.. the band has gone through tough spots, not necessarily creatively, but in terms of.. it's not the easiest thing in the world to keep a band together for 14 or 15 years. Honestly, it was not in our minds to do this "Paul Is Dead"-kind of thing. That was not what we were thinking. Sometimes I wonder if people at a certain point are looking for the chink in the armor, or signs of aging [laughs]. For us, we just concentrate on making the music. As strict as we are with ourselves, and as punishing we are with our self-criticism, if we can make a record we like, then we're still moving. We really don't talk about it that much. We always think in terms of the next project and the next thing. The fact that we made it past our second year to me is more mind-boggling than the idea we'll last another 14 years.
For me, the biggest hang up is that I really consider ourselves a live band, and it is becoming a little bit harder for us to play. But as long we can continue to figure out ways to do that.. I guess the main thing is, if I'd felt like we'd done something that was a definitive statement.. but I never feel that way. I always feel like, aw, shit, that was cool, but I always have this sense that is more to be done, more to be said, and a lot of improvement to be made.
NATN: What interests you in music, particularly from a songwriting/musicianship standpoint?
GP: I never really considered myself a musician. When I first started playing guitar, it was because I wanted to play in bands and participate. I never had a burning musical statement I wanted to make. But the more I played, the more I felt like that might be possible. Like, oh, why don't I try this or try that? I still feel like an amateur, so it's always really easy for me to get excited by musical stuff. When I've learned how to play a different thing on guitar, or if the band does something exciting and interesting.. I guess the point is I'm not jaded because I don't feel like I've figured that much stuff out.
This summer, I've been trying to teach myself piano. Both Brendan and Ian play really well, so I was kind of curious about it. I sat down with these children's primers and I've been trying to figure out piano [laughs]. To me, it's so primitive, and the idea of separating my left and right hand is so impossible. Everything still seems really open to me. That's why when I see incredible bands like The Ex or Shellac or Blonde Redhead, or tons of groups from D.C. like Quixotic, I'm really intrigued by what they're doing musically. You know when you're really young and you first hear a record, you couldn't separate who is playing guitar from the bass, and what lead guitar is opposed to rhythm guitar? I always feel that way. I'm still processing what people are doing. I don't get bored with it.
NATN: What do you like best about the D.C. music scene at present? Is the sense of community still strong?
GP: The community has changed for me. It's never going to be like when you're 17 and you're living in each others' back pockets 24 hours a day. A big change for me was that for a really long time in D.C., there was a culture of group houses that were really intense: eight people living in a house together, doing shows, bands practicing. I lived in a group house called Pirate House that had a studio in it. The Embassy constantly had shows and parties. There was always this really strong communal living thing happening. A lot of that got disrupted by real estate prices changing and people getting older and moving out. I definitely miss that aspect of things.
But D.C. is a town that regenerates constantly. I'm always blown away by the fact that there are still new groups coming up. I've never been about paying respect to your elders. I'm much more into the idea of young people doing their own thing. That keeps happening. Bands get up there and create their own thing. There's a lot of really interesting music happening in D.C. like there always is. It's like there's something in the water.
NATN: Does you have any role behind-the-scenes at Dischord?
GP: No. I don't. I have my own label called Peterbilt, and Joe has a label called Tolotta. His label has some amazing bands like Dead Meadow and Orthrelm, which is just a drum/guitar combo, but some of the most psychotically intense playing you've ever heard. I put stuff out rarely. I don't want to be a functioning label because I don't really have the business mindset for it. But every now and then I put out something I really like. The most recent thing was a solo project called Octus by the guitar player in Orthrelm. It's demos he did on his own that I wanted people to hear. Dischord is Ian and Jeff from Minor Threat. They have a staff of five or six people that work there, and it's a well-oiled machine.
NATN: If you would, give me your thoughts on the issue of online music file sharing on sites like Napster.
GP: From our point of view, it doesn't bother us at all. We've always been into people sharing our music, dubbing our tapes, sharing live tapes. We have an open policy that anyone who wants to come to our shows with a recording device or a video camera can. We don't benefit from radio, so the more people that share our music, the more people hear it. I can't really understand the hysteria, which I think has been generated by the major labels, because they have so much more to lose. Most independent bands' motivation is for people to hear their music, and that's certainly our motivation. Considering our pricing and stuff like that, the idea has always been to make the music as accessible as possible. To me, any technology that allows that happen is cool.
Just for me, maybe because I'm older, I don't get a big kick out of downloading off the Internet. I don't really have a computer that can do it. I grew up collecting Beatles records like I was collecting religious icons. There's something about the item I really enjoy. I like to see the artwork and the way they present that side of themselves. File sharing doesn't apply so much to me, but to me, if young kids are into it and that satisfies them, I'm all for it.
NATN: Would you agree that someone looking on Napster for an oddball Fugazi track has already purchased what's out there to begin with?
GP: Sure. I mean, our new record is already available on the Internet for people to download, before it has come out. I guess I could say, oh man, that's going to cut into sales and they should really wait and go buy it. But I really can't spend a lot of energy worrying about that. It could just as easily work that they're so into it, that they'll want to buy the album and read the lyrics. We don't have the energy to expend wanting to police that stuff. What it really is doing is facilitating interest in what you're doing, and that's the main thing.
NATN: What about the recent uproar over contract issues? Some major artists are suing their labels to get their contracts voided. Fugazi has been able to separate itself from these kinds of problems by doing things on its own.
GP: Yeah. And to be honest with you, I think any band could have. There have been a lot of times where people felt they had to enter into that machinery, thinking it was the only option open to them. We've never thought that was the case. I guess these lawsuits are good if they educate people about what's going on. I think there have been independent networks to put out music for a long time in this country.
JONATHAN COHEN | Jonathan Cohen co-created Nude As The News with his Indiana University mates Troy Carpenter and Ben French. When not traversing the globe for business and pleasure, he holds down the fort as a senior editor for Billboard in New York. Stop him and he just may ask, "what for lunch?"