Stewart Copeland
Infiltrating The Order Of The Grand Jam
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I never took up drums in the years afterward, but The Police were never far from my CD player. And while Sting continued to rule the world as a solo artist in the wake of The Police’s dissolution, Copeland largely disappeared from view to score films and make an occasional record of decidedly un-pop music. I had all but consigned myself to the notion that I would never get to see him bash the drums onstage with my own eyes.
Flash forward to the spring of 2000, and Copeland was back in front of an audience -- even if just for one night -- in the impromptu jam band Oysterhead with Primus bassist Les Claypool and Phish guitarist Trey Anastasio. The New Orleans crowd that night certainly wouldn’t have predicted that a year later, the trio in front of them would be recording a studio album and preparing for a full-fledged North American tour, but that’s exactly what happened.
And while that album, The Grand Pecking Order, is an at-times compelling blend of the group members’ distinct personalities, Oysterhead took things to any number of next levels in live performance. Behind jovial sing-a-longs, dark, psychedelic detours, and ferocious jams that found audience members with mouths agape in delight, Copeland more than proved his status as one of the best rock drummers of all time.
In this interview, conducted a few weeks prior to the release of The Grand Pecking Order, Copeland talked about the rare magic Oysterhead was able to conjure in the studio and how the experience has re-energized his zest for playing in a band.
NATN: If you would, start me from the first inklings of this project. How did it begin to come together?
Stewart Copeland: I think it all began with Les, who called up Trey. At various times, different members have been the guy on the mission to make it happen. But basically, Les is our leader. He sort of assembled the group in the first place. It was definitely Les who started the ball rolling and called up Trey. He said, "I've been invited to put together a band for Jazzfest. What do you think?" They both between them came up with the idea of calling me, since Les and I had worked togther on a Primus track. I'd heard of Phish a bit, same as Primus, but Les said, "Trey is really great. You gotta check it out." Les was playing a show in Burlington [Vt.], so I flew over there to meet up with these guys. As soon as we started playing, it was very clear that these are serious players who really combine well together. Sparks really fly here. This isn't just a marquee value sort of thing.
I thought, this is incredible. This would be fun! We could go out and play some clubs. So, let's do this [New Orleans] show. Well, the tickets sold out in 12 minutes or something like that, and they were going on Ebay for $2,000! All these weird, utterly off-the-chart statistics. All the merchandise was sold out before the band even went on stage, at about $15 a head. Now, everything is different from when I was in a rock band years ago. But I can even remember that with The Police, we'd do seven bucks a head. But this was off the chart. Usually you do your main mechandise sales after everyone has seen the band and they've gotta have the T-shirt. But they were gone by then! This is before the band even went on stage! So, we don't know how many tickets we could have sold. That all kind of came later. What came before then, and what was really the crucial thing, was, shit, these guys play together well. I know a lot of really great players, but it's the way musicians combine that gives you a group, as opposed to just a bunch of guys up there superstarring.
NATN: How much prep time did the three of you have before the actual show?
SC: We had a day or two in Sausalito, and then we went to New Orleans and had the soundcheck there, and that was pretty much it. It's a jam band. And I'm overjoyed there is a movement, a wave. And I'm going, "Jesus Christ! We haven't got any material, guys!" I'm used to playing in a pop group. And they're saying, "they'll love it. They'll love it." But but but.. so we went out there, and we ended up playing for 2 1/2 hours. Now for me, that was a little long. I loved every note of it, but I wouldn't ask people to pay money for it. Because that was just us noodling and having an incredible, fun time doing it, but I wouldn't charge admission for that kind of shit. Well, it turns out the Phish fans thought we didn't play long enough! And as far as I'm concerned, I really like the look of that Phish crowd. I want to play for those people. Whatever the Phish audience wants, I will play it by their rules. Fine with me. There's such a good vibe from them. When I saw a Phish show finally, and then when I went to see Trey here at the Greek [Theater], the audience was such a really cool audience. That's who I want to play for.
NATN: Had you guys written some songs for the show?
SC: Sort of. The main body of the lyrics were written in the dressing room as we were walking on stage. Les misheard something Trey said and that turned into "Rubberneck Lions." As we start tossing it around, it starts to mean something. And actually, there is kind of a meaning to it. But we didn't do that much tossing around before the show in New Orleans, so the lyrics are sort of doggerel. But when we got to Vermont and had a chance to think about it and actually figure out what the song is about, we put some sense into it.
NATN: Okay. So you play and the show is done. Then what?
SC: Well, we have always had this thing where, look, let's book this gig. Trey, meanwhile, is writing a symphony. He's contemplating the end of Phish because he's sick of playing in a band. Then, there's these two guys who want to do one show, and this isn't a band. We get there, and fuck, this is great. It's like, "I tell ya what, let's just do one more thing." Then, we have so much fun doing that... this thing, without any help from us, is developing its own momentum. It's just clear to us that this is the shit. When we were recording the album, we just got so deep into the pocket of it being the right thing for us to be doing, that we booked a tour. Then we went our separate ways for awhile, but when we get back together again for our one-month tour, which is all we allowed ourselves, we're going to be booking another tour. That's just the way Oysterhead has always gone. We really enjoy each other's company as well as the music we're making. This is supposed to be just a project, but in spite of our efforts, it's turning into a group!
NATN: What were the sessions like? Did you bring in fully fleshed-out ideas?
SC: No, no. And we've kind of decided.. I'm a blabbermouth and my life is an open book, and I'll talk about any damn thing. So shoot me if you don't like how I go about doing things. But we've sort of decided that our M.O. in the studio is a state secret. I don't know. Shit. What the hell. We did it the way we always did it. We improvised, jammed, cut up the songs, and Bob's your uncle! There's an album. But that's all I'm permitted to say.
NATN: I must imagine there are hours and hours of leftover raw material?
SC: Yeah, yeah. We spent the first four days just jamming and jamming and jamming. And we have hours of tape. We spent a month in Vermont and two weeks in Sausalito, which is pretty cool, as a matter of fact. For a band of guys who hardly know each other, with no material to speak of really, to come out with a record at all is pretty amazing.
NATN: Did you write any of the songs per se?
SC: No. It's a tricky point, because there are a couple of songs that Les brought in and Trey brought in. I didn't bring any songs in. I brought in one lyric! But the music, on almost all the tracks, the three of us came up with it. Whoever is singing the track gets to write the lyrics. Since I'm not a singer, I didn't get to write many of the lyrics. I don't care. They recognized that leaves me a bit locked out of the publishing, so they made it up for me in other ways. I write music everyday for film. And for Oysterhead, I'm just a drummer. I like playing drums.
NATN: Were there any other musical helpers involved?
SC: Just one. Each of us had a couple of ideas we brought in, and in my case, I brought in the lyrics for "Wield The Spade," which I had co-written with Pat McDonald. That's the reason I'm not a songwriter. The things that are interesting to me to write about are not song material. They're op-ed material. I'm fascinated by dictators. That song is actually about [former Romanian president] Nikolai Ceausescu, who went from a speech and addressing his people to the firing squad in about four days. I don't know if you remember his story. It all went bad within days.
NATN: Well, there are some definite overtones of darker subjects here. You'd probably agree that "Shadow Of A Man" is pretty creepy, right?
SC: Yeah, which is funny, because the vibe in the Oysterhead room is three goofy guys laughing and chuckling. That's Les' song. "Army's On Ecstasy" is a collaboration, and "The Grand Pecking Order" is a Les song too. He had to endure some pressure from his bandmates in that instance to write a couple of more verses, which he's so good at doing. For instance, on "Army's On Ecstasy," he wanted to keep to that one verse, but we hassled him, and he came up with two more verses that were even better, and he was a happy guy.
I have the same thing that they do to me all the time. Things that I don't want to do, because that's not the way I do it. And then they push me, and I do it, and fuck, that was a great idea! How come I hadn't done that 30 years ago? That's I think what all three of us get out of this band. You could say sometimes that we compromise, but in fact, it's more like full submission to the will of the other two. These are two smart guys, I've learned now. Whenever they propose something that's not the way I'm used to doing it in my many decades of experience in music, it's getting much easier for us to persuade each other, because these are some smart guys.
NATN: What do you think people can expect from the shows?
SC: I have no idea. I don't know what the show is going to be like. We're going to convene next week to start rehearsing and getting organized. We've done the record, but I have a feeling it's going to be another stage beyond that, even. You know, I can't restrain myself. I get up there on stage and start blasting away on the drums, and whether I have the physical stamina or not, I get carried away, and I burn a lot of calories. 2 1/2 hours is about my physical limit. But that was just one show. We play a week of shows, and I'll be a lot stronger at the end of that week. I've just never done it before. It's not the way I do it. I've always done pop music, where we play the song, have an improvisation in the middle, and then we go back to the chorus. That's what the audience wants.
The Phish audience is different. They don't want it the same every night. They want a different show every night, because they come to every show. That's kind of strange, but I'll go with it! I'm used to when every member of the crew and the band knows exactly what's happening next. That's just the way I've always done it. But that's not going to be the Oysterhead way.
NATN: The New Orleans show featured some interesting covers. Do you think those will remain in the sets?
SC: Yeah, I kind of hope so. I enjoyed those, particularly the Led Zeppelin song ["Immigrant Song"]. For me, this is a hobby. I haven't got any flag to wave. I couldn't care less whether we play our music or cover songs. These two guys are great to play with, and I don't care what we're playing. I liked playing "Immigrant Song." That was a lot of fun to play.
NATN: What were your thoughts on how quickly the New Orleans show made the rounds on the Internet?
SC: Well, the terrible thing is, is that the show really sucked from the point of view of not being there and not being one of the three guys. I listened to tapes, and that was right in the thick of when Napster was in all the headlines, and of course, I was using Napster like crazy. I picked it up, and thought, "oh my god, that sounds terrible!" The singing was out of tune, and there were drum fuck-ups everywhere. Car crashes, train wrecks, buses over the cliff. There were few survivors.
But there were moments that were incredible. I cut down the 2 1/2 hours to 50 minutes on Pro Tools. That's when it really sounded great. I mailed that CD to Les and Trey, and that's when I think we began to realize, "fuck, we're actually pretty good." I just want to release my 50-minute version on the Internet just to undo the damage of the Napster 2 1/2 hour version. Everyone's going, "no, no, no! That's a record, that's a record!" My attitude about Napster is that musicians need two things: they want to be heard, and they need to be paid. I've got a day job, so I don't need to be paid. I want to be heard. Oysterhead for me is not my day job. I'm a film composer. Years ago, I was a drummer. Now, I play drums as a hobby. I play with a much more serious attitude. I spend more hours tweaking my drum set, polishing my cymbals, and tuning my drums, then I ever did when I was a drummer. And I'm playing way better, too!
NATN: Well along those lines, before New Orleans, how long had it been since you played live?
SC: Years! I've done the occasional show, which was really hard work, where someone would twist my arm and I'd get up and play. I'd pretty much walked away from drums. I had a drum set in my drum booth in my studio, but basically that booth was a place to make private phone calls. There were all those fucking drums in the way! Now, the drums are out of the booth because I'm always rebuilding and unbuilding them and playing them every free minute I can get.
NATN: And how long has it been since you actually toured?
SC: Animal Logic back in 1990. And that hardly even counted. No, wait. I did the Rhythmatists. Was that before or after Animal Logic? I think it was slightly after; 1992 or 1993.
NATN: Beyond Oysterhead, what other projects have you been working on?
SC: Well, since the Oysterhead album, I've scored three films. "Iron Monkey," which is coming out soon, "Deuces Wild," which is coming out soon, and a TNT film called "Firestarter" which I'm going to complete before the tour. Right now, I'm just finishing the mix for "On The Line," starring a couple of members of 'N Sync. It's an orchestral score with some electronica. There is an 'N Sync song not on their current album which is in the movie. I've used a lot of that theme in the orchestral part of the score. I have two completely unrelated lives! I never met the 'N Sync guys. I never work with the actors. I'm a post-production guy. I'll probably meet them at the premiere. Jive is putting it out. They know how to sell records, those guys.
NATN: What music have you been enjoying lately?
SC: I'm practicing right now to Killa, who are an Irish band. And Moloko, who you probably know about. Manu Chao is the most important artist right now. Are you familiar with him? His new album is a bit of a disappointment but is still incredible. For me, it's the most important album since [Paul Simon's] Graceland. It's one of those records. There are a couple of tracks on Graceland that actually cause me physical pain, they're so beautiful. "Diamonds On The Soles Of Her Shoes" -- that melody, I just choke up.
NATN: Did you see Paul Simon on tour in support of his latest album?
SC: No, but one of his bass players, Armand, is a good friend of mine. In fact, I'm playing with him tonight! Stanley Clarke is doing a benefit show tonight and I'm going to play a couple of tunes. I'm not sure what the lineup is. It's a benefit. Now that I'm into playing drums, I'm going to go along and play!
NATN: So if you can, tell me your thoughts on the future of Oysterhead beyond these tour dates?
SC: Right now, we have a tour and no other plans. I'm a film composer. I've got a beautiful studio here on the grounds of my home here in Brentwood. It's a great job. I love it. I enjoy the people I work with and everything about it. But man, those drums are a lot of fun! And you know, I've conquered the world with all that, so I don't need any more of that in my life. But wait a minute.. these two guys are a lot of fun to play with! It's just a month. But it's going to be great. I'm going to play my fucking ass off. I've been running, playing tennis, and getting fit for it. It's what I dream about as I'm sitting at my desk doing my job. It's a tour. It's one month. Then, I'm going to have movies lined up for the day I get home from tour. As we're on tour, we're going to say, "let's do another month in the summer!" Sure! Why the hell not. I couldn't do, and I don't think the other guys could either, the nine-month world conquest thing.
Les is building a group with his Frog Brigade. He's out there on tour building a following. Trey is just coming out of the Phish thing for 17 years, and doesn't need to be in a band. I don't need to be in a band either. But this band is kind of hard to turn your back on! It's so cool. And there's such interest in it. I've been trying to figure out these statistics. It appears to me that we've sold 43,000 tickets on the Internet with no promotion or advertising or anything! I don't know what that even means. The tickets haven't even gone on-sale yet! I was only aware just the other day of the Oysterhead site, which Les has been organizing. He's our art director. Fuck, it's really good. Just on the basis of this unknown site, we sold 43,000 tickets. How the fuck do you do that?
NATN: I must know: how often does you talk to Sting and Andy Summers? Are you guys in contact at all?
SC: Yeah. Off and on. It seems like we're in contact all the time, but actually, years go by. It's sort of like whenever we see each other, it's like we saw each other five minutes ago. We don't have any sensation of time going by. We don't pick up the phone every week, but when we do, we pick up from where we left off.
NATN: It seemed like The Police's vaults were cleared with the Message In A Box boxed set. Is there anything still buried in there that might see the light of day?
SC: There is one piece of unreleased Police product which I think is really cool. One of the times when they were working on the boxed set or something like that, they convened the three of us on the phone. Sting and Andy were in Italy; Andy was visiting Sting at the time, and I was on a DSL line in L.A. And we went down all the song titles from all of our albums. Song title: "Can't Stand Losing You." And we each just talked about the track and argued and shouted and screamed.
There was laughter and tears. It was very cathartic. It was almost like a therapy session. It was hysterical. It was so much fun. We were really going at it with all the language, straight for the jugular, refighting the battles, laughing hysterically while we put the stilleto exactly where we stuck it last time. The engineer said it was like watching a concert. They were in Italy and it's like after dinner, and I'm here in L.A. at 10 in the morning. I'm getting more and more caffeinated as they're getting drunker and drunker. It was really funny. So we have that, which is about three hours of conversation. Andy is fucking hysterical. He should have been a stand-up comedian, that guy. He's a miserable little fuck, but boy is he funny when he gets on a roll. I think grouchy people make the best comedians. That will probably be packaged along with the music at some point.
NATN: And now, original Police tracks seem to be turning up as dance remixes. For awhile, the Different Gear remix of "When The World Is Running Down..." was inescapable in clubs in New York. What did you think of that track?
SC: I think it was a really suckacious track. If The Police was a one-hit band and it was in danger of being tarnished, I may have been more pissed off about it. But people know who The Police are and what The Police did.
JONATHAN COHEN | Jonathan Cohen co-created Nude As The News with his Indiana University mates Troy Carpenter and Ben French. When not traversing the globe for business and pleasure, he holds down the fort as a senior editor for Billboard in New York. Stop him and he just may ask, "what for lunch?"