Joe Strummer
On A Roll
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Sitting in the corner of a hotel bar near Grammercy Park in Manhattan, Joe Strummer looks pretty jet-lagged. He's drinking a beer, smoking a cigarette, and trying to muster enough courage to gulp down a strange health drink he's bought around the corner that's five different shades of green. As its various contents congeal before his very eyes, Joe handles a stream of elated journalists, each granted 20 minutes or so with one of rock history's coolest talkers.
NATN: How're you doing?
Joe Strummer: Good, yeah. We came in yesterday. You do what you have to do.
NATN: You played your first of five shows in Brooklyn last night. How'd it go?
JS:
Well, considering that we flew in from the airport, pretty good! We got in here about mid-day, so we had time to soundcheck and get it together a bit. I think it takes an hour a day to get over the jet lag. So, say you're 12 hours out on your flight to L.A. from London. I think it would probably take 12 days to really lock back in to local time. I don't think we'll get over the lag this week, especially doing a rock'n'roll show. That's like punching yourself in the guts as well as being tired! It's extra difficult to kick it off, really.
NATN: Is there any sort of concept behind playing five shows straight here?
JS:
Um, there isn't really a concept. It's just that, we get sick of traveling through cities so fast that you can't even remember what sequence of cities you'd just been to. You have to tour like that. The tour is like a Pac-Man, in that you have to keep feeding it money. Everything is on hire and everyone is on a salary, the trucks, the bus, you know. So by nature it has to move on to another town. But this kind of thing is different, because we haven't got a bus on tour. We like this place, the Gramercy Park Hotel. It's economically viable to stay here, not like uptown somewhere. That means five nights of hotel rooms ain't no problem. And we like to get some vibe of New York, you know, because we'll put that information onto a record. All of the musicians are now running around the city I don't know doing what, but they'll be buying tapes and records. We'll definitely use this information in a good way, or I hope so.
NATN: You sure don't want to try 19 shows again?
JS:
Um, we would do that. But I don't think we could fill that many. But we would do that, yeah.
NATN: Running over the setlist from last night, you guys played some interesting covers, including "Blitzkreig Bop"...
JS: How did you get the setlist?
NATN: Off the Internet!
JS: God damn Internet! It sucks! Sorry, I know you're an Internet magazine, but that aspect of it sucks. Before, you could have a notion of surprise. Never mind. There's nothing you can do about it. You have to do super super super changes.
NATN: Was it a tribute to Joey?
JS: Yeah. When did Joey kick the bucket? We did it the first time we'd played New York after that. That's when we decided to start playing that. I still can't put that B chord in. There's a rogue B chord!
NATN: Will that song be on the Ramones tribute record?
JS: No, because... Can you say shagged on the Internet? Yeah? We were too shagged out by the time we got to Los Angeles. We had done a really long road trip. Really absurd gigs like Seattle on Tuesday and Amarillo, Texas, on Wednesday, and then back. It was the end of a long, long road tour. And so we kind of missed it. All we had to offer were some pretty good live recordings of it.
NATN: The new album sounds amazing. Is it safe to say you guys are on a roll?
JS: We're on a roll. This is our fourth year of operation and we've been refining the team, really, across those four years, and working out how we operate together. Everybody contributes in this setup.
NATN: Interesting lineup, too. You've got some old friends in there as well as some young faces. How do they all come together so well?
JS: It's very odd. We just like to make really great music, okay? Everybody else has got other jobs, you know, like writing for so and so, or producing. A lot of the things the guys get asked to do are kind of mamby-pamby pop schtick, which they have to do to pay the rent. But when we come together as the Mescaleros, we don't have any pressure at all. It's not like we're going to blow off a hundred thousand million fans who are expecting whatever they liked before. That's a great thing, even though it's a shame they're not being recognized, these people I've got with me, for the talents that they are. One day they will. But the upside is that we can be as outlaw as we want in the sound. And that's what we live for, the recording sessions. Obviously, guys check us out to make sure it's not too funny or weird, but we can get as crazy as we want.
NATN: Nice to be on an independent label, huh?
JS: It's great. They wouldn't hassle us. They know what we can do and that we're good at it.
NATN: How soon until we get another album from the Mescaleros?
JS: Well, we're on a roll. We've got about 20 things in the can. But notice I say things and not songs, eh? It takes a lot of work to make a thing into a song. But it is a lot to work with, that's for sure, like a seething mass of things. We've got to whip them into shape. That's the hardest bit. That's the bit where you can move it to a new level and get something intelligent on there in a lyrical way. Say something in an interesting way. And make sure it bloody rhymes!
NATN: On your new album, you talk about a gamma ray coming from Indianapolis and I'm from Indianapolis. I have to ask: Why Indy?
JS: Because I was imagining this thing, like the gamma ray was coming out of somewhere. And I was imagining in my mind that it was terror on the streets spreading out from some point on the surface of the world. I just thought, Indianapolis! It has to come from Indianapolis. And also, it's a great word to say. It's not like Leicester, or Bath, or cities from Britain. But Indianapolis! That's the kind of word you want in a song. I'm surprised I haven't used that before!
NATN: Did I read that you've been recording with Jimmy Cliff?
JS: Well, not recording. I was there as the lyric man. Him and Dave Stewart were in the studio. Dave said bring something in, so I brought a lyric, and then they cooked a tune up. They've done a demo recording of it, but it's hard to say whether it will see the light of day. They're going to use the best cuts for Jimmy Cliff's new record. I heard another track that was great! I think it was just one that Jimmy wrote. They played me a test recording of it and it was just great. Like the old style, you know? Like a great Jamaican record that you remember. I think it was called "Wake Jamaica" or something like that.
[he looks at a drink on the table] Look at this thing! It's stratifying even more. This is my health drink that I've got to drink in about 10 minutes. It's changing. I don't know what's in it. I said to this Chinese guy around the corner, make me something to combat jet lag. It tastes awful!
NATN: You were here right after Sept. 11 and now you're back six months later. What are you thoughts on the war on terrorism at this point?
JS: Well, I think that had to be done. Whenever I'm asked this, I always refer back to Europe in 1933. Everybody sat back and let Hitler make this massive war machine he built from 1933 to 1939. We eventually had to face every damn tank and bullet down. The European feeling is that you have to get in there and nip it in the bud. I wonder if we had done that in 1933, whether there would have been a second World War.
NATN: Do you think there's an awareness of things going on in other countries that wasn't there before Sept. 11?
JS: Well obviously, Israel and Palestine has to be sorted out. If the United Nations could work, if that could really be what it's supposed to be.. it's a shame they can't suspend all hostilities and bring it before some international court of law. These are ancient, ancient arguments, aren't they? It's very similar to Northern Ireland, which we get a lot being over there. You think, how could the two sides ever meet? It's religious and tribal. Just the same, and it goes back so long. But when you look into history, they were living side by side there for thousands of years without any trouble! But now it's going to be like Mafia vengeance, you know, you killed my son so I will kill you. It's like Mafia-style vendettas. And that's really going to be very hard to put in the past. It's going to be really difficult.
NATN: As an outsider, how does the mood in New York City stike you?
JS: People really thanked us last night after the show. But I was surprised, because we got off the plane and tried our damndest, but sometimes a few things went wrong, you know? I wasn't really prepared for such effusive thanks from the crowd. This means we did good. But I don't really know. When you're up there rocking, you don't think about comparisons or anything. You think about the moment. I can never tell a different audience, Finland, Lapland. It's one crowd, yeah?
NATN: Are you going to be pulling out different songs at each show?
JS: I'm going to try and change it up. But again, with people being a little knocked out, it can be tough. Soundcheck is the moment to whip things into shape or blow the dust off them, but you need a fit, keen crew to attempt that. I think we'll be able to attempt it because we don't have to travel. This is what's great: we're not traveling today for 1,000 miles and then getting out of the bus. That is tiring itself, isn't it? Just the sheer act of traveling is a knockout. So hopefully we'll have some juice left.
NATN: I saw you pull some great songs out last night. Nice to see a song from Sandinista!
JS: "Lose This Skin!" That was the subject of tremendous debate in the camp. It came down to a democratic vote. The first person who was to vote abstained! This was supposed to be a vote, but no, I'm abstaining! It kind of threw the majority. The vote went against it. But then Tymon went off to the bar down the street and we all started feeling sorry for him, because we knew he'd gone off to cry into a beer. So then we all decided it would be fitting for me and him to get up and do it, because we used to be a busking duo. So I thought, great. But god damn those changes are hard to follow! He just goes into them like John Lee Hooker. You have to be on your toes. We began to get Martin doing a little keyboard and then we forced the drummer to get up and give it some bongos. We managed to get a version going. But then poor Tymon, it's in D, and he's got only four strings, so mainly the action is on the D string. It snapped halfway through his big moment! We announced that the song had been recorded 22 years exactly in this city, so we're going to play it. Then, [hums the intro] it snapped! He had to play the whole song with like three strings. But we'll play it again tonight. Yeah.
NATN: Do you get enjoyment out of playing those old songs?
JS: Oh, yeah! I wouldn't play things that were shitty.
NATN: You know, I'm obligated to ask...
JS: No, they're not. Oh, sorry.
NATN: No, I was going to ask, next year, the chances of The Clash being inducted into the Rock'N'Roll Hall Of Fame are pretty good.
JS: Why is that? Is there a time limit?
NATN: It's 25 years since your first album, so next year you would be eligble. The Talking Heads played a couple of songs together this year, even though they hadn't performed together in quite some time. Would that sort of event ever inspire you guys getting back together?
JS: No, because it would be false, really. It's not like they ring me up and go, hey, I'm getting itchy feet! I've never received a phone call like that from any of the other members. It seems inorganic to force something in like that. But obviously if you're inducted, you've gotta get up and spin a couple of numbers, yeah? And that's fair play, because it's kind of an honor. But it never leads on. I don't think any of the groups that have played at the induction ceremony have ever gone, hey, this is fun! Forget all those horrible things I said about you in Rolling Stone! Obviously, that's fair play, because they're going to a lot of trouble.
NATN: I saw that Mojo magazine is calling you a legend. What's that feel like?
JS: Well, you have to remember that Mojo has got to sell copies of the magazine, okay? So the more legends they can whip up, the better. So I wouldn't go to mad on that there. I don't think about things like that. It's a tough game trying to get anyone to know you've got a record out. And it's even worse these days with the god damned CD-R's! Can you imagine if back in the day if we had a machine in our house that would make a perfect copy of a vinyl album? Can you imagine? And yet this is what we've got now: [affects American accent] well, I'll just stick it in, burn it, well, do you like this record? I'll make you a copy! We're already bottom feeding. We have to fight for every copy we sell. Never mind downloading off the Internet. It's a combination, one-two. You've got your MP3, bam. Then how about your CD-R, oof!
NATN: I thought you might like the concept of the Internet forcing the record industry to make some major changes.
JS: We have to fight for every copy we sell. I quite like those machines, but I would urge people maybe not to burn or download small-selling acts. Say you turn it on to a friend, you've got to get your friend to go out and buy a copy. They'll be really hurting. Small-selling artists could be hurt much more, obviously. I did think of a way to prevent. I thought of calling the album "Download This and You'll Get a Virus." That's the title. That would really work. It took me hours to think that up!
NATN: Johnny Cash just celebrated his 70th birthday. I know you're a huge fan. Isn't it amazing the guy is still going?
JS: When you see what he's been through, for sure! Have you read any of his autobiography? It's terrific. It starts like this: [affects Johnny Cash accent] "I'm 75, it's 8:00 in the morning, and I feel great. I've been up for a few hours and I haven't thought about drugs once!" It's really full on. It starts like that. But again, I'd like to get a song on one of his records if I could.
NATN: You've already worked on him on one of his records, right?
JS: I tried. I sent a song in, "The Road to Rock'N'Roll." But it didn't make the final roundup.
NATN: Seems like it would be a good collaboration.
JS: Yeah. Maybe collaboration is a good idea. Because he wrote a lot of those songs. I wonder why he doesn't write anymore. This is clever. Maybe I'll just send him a set of lyrics, and he could just, say, Johnny Cash-ize it!
NATN: Any chance of you doing some more acting?
JS: [Quickly] No! I respect actors, and I know they're doing something really difficult. I know they put a lot of thought into it. All their life they've been thinking about acting to get to that point. You have to respect that. I've been thinking about music all of my life. That's a lot of thinking time, really, if you added up a whole person's lifetime. It seems impossible to jump in at a late stage and think, oh, I could do that! Some actors and singers can do it, but I prefer to really concentrate on trying to make a superb record. I think we need focus now in the world. Everybody's got to focus on what they're really good at, so we can get great artifacts coming out. You know, great movies, great books, great records, great everything. We need focus. So I'm trying to really narrow it down rather than go and dangle off in some other area.
NATN: So after spending your whole life thinking about how to record music, how has your approach changed since day one?
JS: Um, really, I've learned not to think too much. To try and divide the brain into two parts, the front and the back. Really you want the stuff that's going on in the back compartment, but you've got to let it flow through without the front compartment nauseing it out. That's a new verb we've invented in Britain. This is something I've learned from Bez in the Happy Mondays. Somehow he brilliantly made it into a verb. So you go, well, everything was going great until so and so came and naused out the whole situation. I think it's a terrific word. I like new verbs. Wonderful thing. But without the front brain nauseing it out. You want the unexpected to occur and that's when things get interesting. But if you're using too much front brain, your ego is in there, your prejudices are in there, and you can't see to the horizons, really. It's all confined in some thought tunnel. In the back of your mind, there's none of that. We try to be free when we record. As soon as it gets dark, we work until it's light.
We've always worked like that. I'm surprised other people don't do that. In London, people come in at 10 a.m. and clock off at six. Phones ring, and it breaks the day up. Working at night, you can really get down on it. There's nobody around. Also I feel that when people are asleep all over the city, perhaps some kind of weird air space opens up in the thinking plane, maybe. Who knows. But I like standing in the city and knowing that everybody else is asleep. Yeah! The loonies are working away at our thing. Us being the loonies!
Thanks to Rodeo Rob for furnishing some questions for this interview.
BEN FRENCH | Ben founded NATN in the winter of 1998-1999 with fellow IU alums Troy Carpenter and Jonathan Cohen. During the day time, he's working for Nielsen Business Media, publisher of Billboard. Ben's favorite acts include Bruce Springsteen, The Clash, Sonic Youth, Elvis Costello, Talking Heads, Rolling Stones, and the Beach Boys.