Thurston Moore
Street Spirit
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NATN: Why don’t we begin with some basic info about the record. When did the band start working on it, and what is the origin of the material?
Thurston Moore: Well, we started working on it last summer. And we were getting set to track the record at the beginning of September, and then of course we got kind of sidelined. We didn’t really start working on it until a good month later as far as tracking at our studio, which is in the neighborhood of the World Trade Center, so it took a while for us to get up and running. But most of the material was written previous to that interruption. There are seven songs on the record. Five of them sort of came out of these acoustic guitar songs I had written that I was playing in solo performances here and there, specifically around New York. They were songs I had been developing myself to maybe present as a solo record at some point. But at the same time, it is always fascinating when I present them to the band because I can’t ever tell anybody what to play. It’s not like one of those situations where this is my song and this is what you have to play on it. I basically just play my song structure and everybody creates their own thing. It really modifies and changes it, usually pretty radically. That will give it a new existence and it will be rearranged even more sometimes to make it more focused as a Sonic Youth song.
Yeah. A good five of these songs were generated from that kind of introduction. The ones that weren’t are “Sympathy For The Strawberry,” which is somewhat of a group improvisation instigated by a chording progression of [bassist/Moore’s wife] Kim [Gordon]’s. The song right before that, called “Plastic Sun,” was sort of written in about the same time as it takes the song to play [laughs hard]. That was a real instant composition. And then actually the song [guitarist] Lee [Ranaldo] is singing on this record, “Karen Revisited,” that came from a bare-bones idea of a chord progression I had, and the band sort of constructed a song entirely from that. The other songs were fairly well constructed on acoustic guitar by me previously, but again, each one went through some modified arrangements. I don’t really look at them anymore as something I individually identify with. They’ve become very much band songs.
NATN: Can you think of any tracks in particular that began their life this way on previous records?
TM: Mostly chunks of records. In a way, I think we’ve sort of all realized that it’s most rewarding to generate music as a group, really organically -- coming together, closing our eyes, and just sort of playing and creating songs from these improvisations. Those tend to be more of what you hear coming out of us. But there are a few albums where that’s not so much the case. I think maybe the most explicit one would be Experimental Jet Set, Trash, and No Star. A number of those were songs I sort of had prepped structurally before introducing them to the band. For no reason. I didn’t do it for any reason except for I had the material and it was just sort of hanging there. When we were rehearsing, it was like, oh, I have this one thing. Lee has also sort of brought in some concise songs to the band, but not as many. But yeah. I don’t do it so that a wealth of material has to be generated from me [laughs hard]. In fact, I don’t like that so much. I think the band is much more successful doing music that is completely a group composition, although a lot of times those songs tend to be much more far-out and so left-of-center, which is fine. This record is like that but it wasn’t really planned that way. It sort of came about where we wanted to have some immediate results, because we decided to release a record in June and go on tour this summer. Basically, we had two options. That was one of them and the other was, well, let’s write a slew of material and by year’s end we can take the kernel of it -- the best stuff -- and create a record.
We went with the other option because we wanted to work this year more than be in the studio writing, at least I did. But I live three hours north of Manhattan so it makes it kind of difficult for me and Kim to come back and forth every weekend. My whole thing was that I had this material I’d been writing and the rest of the band had heard it in performance anyway. They seemed to like it and respond to it, so I said, let’s do these songs. They just happened. And it was really great because we felt really confident making them and it turned out that the first seven tracks were used. We were still of a mind that maybe we’d record more stuff and have that to pick from, but no, it was the first seven tracks. All of the sudden it was identifiable to us as the CD we want to release.
NATN: How long has the band had the Murray Street studio?
TM: Since 1995. We used all the money we made on Lollapalooza ‘95 to build the studio [laughs]. That was the reason we did the tour: it’s a good paycheck and we can actually do what we’ve always wanted, and that is to build a good workspace. All the Sonic Youth records since then have been recorded there. We call the studio by different names, but it’s officially referred to as Echo Canyon on Sonic Youth records. Lee came up with that name and it kind of stuck, but when I do different sessions there I always give it a different name. So do [drummer] Steve [Shelley] and Kim as well.
NATN: What was the physical damage, if any, to the studio after Sept. 11?
TM: We were completely evacuated. Lee’s apartment is also nearby and his family was completely evacuated. We were thinking that we’d have to go down to Memphis to record, because before we built the studio, we did a record at Easley Studio down there. That was quite enjoyable, so I was sort of like, let’s go to Tennessee. But that’s also difficult because we’re all parents now, and you can’t just take your kids out of school. We feel very tied in [to Lower Manhattan]. Lee was able to be escorted to our studio at one point by the National Guard and go in there. The building was okay, and our whole side of the street was protected by a huge building that acted as a barrier. There was a massive amount of soot. We brought in a 16-man detoxifying crew that went in and took care of business: every inch and piece of paper was detoxified. Then we had to spend a long time getting the power supplies for all of our machines back in order, because everything tied into electricity was zapped to such a degree. It took a little while but we slowly crept in there. By the time they let people who were residents back in, it was a very interesting environment to work in, I’ll tell you that much. There was an article in the New York Times magazine all about Murray Street being torn up on a weekly basis. I wish I had recorded the sounds of the street because our windows look out on it. They’d tear it up and patch it over and go way underground to work on the water and electric lines. It was pretty intense, especially sound-wise. The street environment itself is so altered. The fact that it was desolate was one thing, but the lighting of work lights created this other realm that we were accustomed to from working down there.
The police would always look at our papers and go, there’s nobody working down there! They’d just laugh at us. Right now, it’s completely active. People are working and doing their business. It’s amazing the amount of reparation work they did in such a short time. Also the fact that they didn’t have much of a winter to contend with is also very odd. Very strange. But that whole situation was so intense for anybody and everybody. Calling the record after something so reality-based as a street name was so unorthodox for us [laughs]. We’ve always named our records after these far-out literary ideas. The fact that it was such a different kind of title for us, we sort of went for it. It had a classic motif to it. Plus we felt very close to the fact that where we were working at that time.. it was such an evocative period. That’s why we sort of named it after the “where” of where we were.
NATN: Do you feel the album is influenced by Sept. 11 at all? And is it potentially the second part of a themed trilogy?
TM: That’s what Byron Coley said in a press release [laughs]. And he’s free to say that. It was an interesting observation of what we’re doing. Recording, there was a certain vibe that may not have been the same vibe were it just any other time period. Again, I think everybody’s lifestyle and work was somewhat altered by those events. Although there’s nothing explicit on this record that would denote such a thing, there is an intangible feeling there. As far as the whole trilogy aspect, it’s an interesting observation, especially since NYC Ghosts And Flowers sort of addressed the creative aspects of the poets and writers and musicians of New York City, specifically the downtown scene and our lineage thereof. This record is maybe more of a contemplation on the landscape and the architecture of that world. What a third record could be is really beyond me [laughs]. I just read this quote from Miles Davis where he says, let me play the music first and then I’ll explain it to you.
NATN: Sonic Youth played some new songs last fall at the Bowery Ballroom in New York that appear to have not made it onto the record, such as “Celtic Frost.”
TM: Yeah, that was the first time we played those. “Celtic Frost” is called “Rain on Tin” [laughs]. The reason it was called “Celtic Frost” has nothing to do with the Norwegian metal band. I think it was because the guitar figure I had acoustically has a bit of a Celtic motif to it. The working name was “Celtic Frost.” Did we introduce it as such?
NATN: Yes, and there were some other joke titles.
TM:We did introduce one song as “Sonic Youth Says Hello To The Strokes.” I get journalists asking me why that isn’t on the record, and I don’t even remember what song that was! Steve sort of came up with that because it was at the period when bands like us -- these old, stalwart New York bands -- were being asked what we thought of the Strokes. And I was like, well, I don’t know [laughs]! I’d never met them and I think I recognized one of the guys walking around St. Marks Place. They have one album out. I can’t respond to that, but I’m sure they’re great people. I was talking to Russell Simins of [Jon Spencer] Blues Explosion and he was like, why are people asking us about this group? Their publicity machine was in such high gear that it was affecting everybody around them. I just wanted to sort of comment on that.
NATN: Who are the guests that play on “Radical Adults Lick Godhead Style?”
TM: They’re the two sax players in Borbetomagus, who are this hardcore industrial trio. They have been around since the ‘70s. I remember seeing them in the late ‘70s at different art spaces and they would completely divide the audience. Some people would go running screaming out of the place. They are a heavy duty, loud group. They’d stick the bells of their saxophones together and drop ball mics in them. The guitar player would be using metal files on his strings. It was this totally amazing thing. There has been a resurgence of interest in them in the last 10 years, especially with the Japanese noise underground. They continue to this day. Jim and I were doing a mix of “Radical Adults” and we wanted an element to move these sections. We wanted to get ahold of some free jazz sax player, but we thought it might have sounded to obvious. It donned on us that the lung power of [Jim] Sauter and [Don] Dietrich would have been perfect. They came in and just nailed it. It sounds like no other instrument I can think of. It’s amazing they still have that sound. I find them really fascinating.
NATN: What do you feel Jim brings to the table? Can you talk about his specific contributions to this record?
TM: One thing he’s really instrumental with is that, in a way, we always try to fuse certain classic pop ideas with complete destruction. Usually, destruction takes over and it is so enjoyable that we let that be the song. Jim is interesting. He’s so recognized as someone who is radical and on the edge of experimental music. He’ll do interweaving guitar lines and more especially, bass lines. He’s a very adept bass player. The fact that we tend to create our own rhythmic structures against each other makes it almost impossible to put a bass guitar [line] down, because it sounds clunky as it’s trying to lock things in. He will put bass lines in there that fuse everything. He’s a very sophisticated player and it really, I find, works wonderfully with the way we write. He’s in there, but he’s very sublime.
NATN: I had interviewed him last summer during the rehersals for this record, and he was laughing out loud at how some of the songs sounded like the band Sparks.
TM: [Laughs hard]. It’s true. Jim and I totally connect on certain musical leanings. The whole world of glam rock and of Sparks, and even things like Mountain [laughs] and Mott The Hoople. That’s such a part of my life that I identify with. When I was a kid, I was so immersed in that. And of course I threw it all away in ‘77. I just eradicated it. But it’s such a marked event for me. Jim is much younger than I am so most of that music came to him through posthumous discovery. But he’s so attuned to it. And he understands its brilliance. Lee, Kim, and Steve are aware of this but it’s amusing to them at bast. Lee was a Deadhead in those days and Kim was a jazzbo. Steve wasn’t even born yet. So for Jim to come into the equation and completely dig on that scene, it’s great. He knows what I’m referencing when I am referencing some obscure Sparks vibe [laughs]. That relationship is really special. I think it has given the band a newfound maturity [laughs hard].
NATN: This record is coming out on the DGC imprint, which has been largely dormant in the past few years.
TM: It’s all Interscope in a way. DGC is pretty much the outpost of one A&R guy now. It’s a weird thing. I can only hope they’ll be some attention given to the record by DGC. I don’t really know how to approach them. It’s a completely different enterprise than the one we signed with years ago. I think there are a couple of people who really recognize us as something that has value for the label. We never cost them any money and we’re somewhat of a prestigious, boutique act. But we don’t sell records and we never really have. The last couple of records we have delivered have been very obtuse and so far off the mark of any kind of mainstream interest. We’re sort of a non-entity to some degree. But after hearing this new record I think there’s some spark of interest, like, this is a pretty happening rock’n’roll record and people like rock’n’roll again. You know, the whole critical success of Wilco’s new record and such. I think maybe they see it in line with that, which would be good. Their bread and butter is Eminem and we’re certainly not that. In a way, it’s kind of a crapshoot whether a record like this has any potential in the marketplace. The whole voting in of O Brother, Where Art Thou? [as the Grammy album of the year] in the face of MTV rock was very interesting to me. There is also this newfound interest in American rock bands as opposed to manufactured pop stuff.
NATN: If you’re at liberty to say, how many records does Sonic Youth have left on its contract with Interscope?
TM: Oh, you know, I’m the wrong person to ask. I don’t really know. If Kim was here she could answer you in a minute. I tend to somehow incinerate that information when it enters my consciousness. I don’t know why! At this point, in the environment of major labels, it’s really hard to say what could be better or worse for a band like us. We’re an enigma because we do exist as a major-label signing and we’re able to put out records whether they’re worked our not. We’re still there and we’re financed to put out records. It’s a privilege of sorts, especially in the light that we also record and release music on our own independent label. It’s music that is not in the interest of a major label because they can’t campaign for any kind of radio or mainstream distribution. We also like to be able to put out those records that don’t need such a campaign and can exist more modestly. So, it’s a good relationship.
But things there have been so in flux the last couple of years. Everybody is disgusted that it has gotten down to the lowest common denominator of Disney-produced acts. It’s a disservice to youth culture, first of all, but it does make money. It’s the only thing that is, so it makes sense to focus more on that. I think critically, and I think there is a critical mind in the industry, it’s trying to be weighed out. I think people working at such labels as Interscope want music that has critical acclaim and to see it succeed if it can. But money is tight. And they can only just fly it up the flagpole. I’ll be very curious to see how a record like this will do, if it’s promoted within any kind of modest reason. You know, Sonic Youth has been around quite a long time. We’re one of those bands that more people know the name than that know the band. That could also be in our favor. It’s like, now’s the time. This record is somewhat of a more accessible listen, from the feedback I’m getting from people. It’s completely out there but at the same time it has a certain flow. I think that really makes it markedly different from the last few records, which were far more challenging, as far as, what the hell are they doing [laughs]?
NATN: How much do the band’s shows vary from night to night? Or, how many songs are you rehearsed on? Do you guys ever have the urge to play a random track off of, say, Washing Machine?
TM:[Laughs] We have the urge, but the ability is another question, because a lot of it has to do with, what the hell tuning was I playing in? And it’s like, if you don’t have that notated and you can pull it out of your notebook -- and I have no notebook. I don’t have this stuff written down anywhere. It takes so much detective work for me to get back into a song, even from then. It becomes really problematic.
NATN: Can I make a request for “Saucer-Like”?
TM:“Saucer-Like?” That’s on the list! I’ll throw it in the hat.
NATN: What about other songs from Daydream Nation?
TM: Once in a while. We were thinking of doing “The Wonder.” And we have done “Candle.” But some of those songs are just beyond me. I know there’s some desire to do the song “The Sprawl” that was on there. I mean, I will attempt it, but... oh man. I was listening to that the other day trying to figure it out. I have no idea where I was at when I was playing that. It’s so weird. It’s just really a mystery to me. But that’s what makes it kind of worthwhile, I guess!
NATN: Talk about the upcoming reissues. Are there any awesome goodies to be included?
Well, the first one we’re doing is Dirty. And then we’ll follow that with Goo and Daydream Nation. And there’s no live stuff. Most live tapes, unless they’re really fantastic recordings, of which we don’t really have any of -- they’re mostly board tapes. We didn’t utilize any live stuff. Unless live stuff is super strong, it’s like, nobody wants to hear that. There are lots of weird little demo things we had found. We happened to do a lot of B-sides at that time I remember.
NATN: Around the time of Dirty was sort of the heyday of the major-label EP.
TM: Yeah. Definitely. That record was Sonic Youth’s first major-label, kind of grunge-era record. And of course it really didn’t translate beyond that. It was still too fucked up [laughs]. That record was really campaigned for by DGC at the time, so they let us do all these B-sides, single releases, and video stuff. There is a lot material that exists extraneously to the CD itself. That one is done. We haven’t even begun on the other ones. I think that one will come out by summer’s end or fall’s beginning.
NATN: So you haven’t yet gone into the vault for the next couple of reissues?
TM: No. But we have most of that stuff at our studio. We have ownership of all those tapes, so the stuff is at hand. We have hundreds of cassettes since 1980.
NATN: The general idea is to try to find a second disc of material for each one?
TM: Oh, yeah. Totally. I feel like we’d be ripping people off if we just put like three new things on or something. I think there’s enough stuff for each release. There’s stuff we left off this one that just didn’t make the final decision-making process. There’s more than enough. It’s a good car CD, the second CD [laughs].
NATN: Talk a little bit about curating All Tomorrow’s Parties. Why do you think these type of events have a much harder time being successful in the States?
TM: Um, I don’t really know. Doing ATP at UCLA was somewhat fearsome for some people, because you had the bureaucracy of UCLA involved. Other than that, I’m really not sure why those attempts aren’t made, especially after the success of Lollapalooza, which became kind of unwieldy of and unto itself. But there’s a way for it to exist on a somewhat modest level, which is how we did it at UCLA. It was also a unique situation because there was hardly any involvement between us and the promoters of ATP, which is basically two people. A lot of it was artist-to-artist handshakes. There’s no profile of that. There’s no positioning by labels or management for the bands. You didn’t really see that. It was just bands showing up, whether it was Quixotic, Eddie Vedder, Cecil Taylor, or Unwound. The playing field was so level that way. Everybody just played amazingly. Without a hitch. Everybody went on on time. There was no kvetching or complaining. It was completely great. That was shockingly hopeful for me. I sort of think we should do it again!
NATN: Were there any artists on you wish list that just didn’t pan out?
TM: We were attempting to get Neil Young. He was interested but it conflicted with his CSNY tour. Yoko Ono, who was a little pre-occupied. There were things we wanted to present that were extra-musical. We wanted to have Merce Cunningham do a dance company piece. Certain new music composer types, particularly from Europe, such as Luke Ferrari and people like that. A lot of it has to do with budget. You can’t just give Merce Cunningham a few thousand dollars. Then there’s the logistics of presenting them on a stage between Mike Watt and the Stooges [laughs]. It just didn’t seem like it was going to work out in their favor. We could have filled pages of a wishlist.
NATN: What are some of the other Sonic Youth-related projects in the pipeline?
TM: We have a recording we’re planning to release on SYR of a session we did with Brigitte Fontaine. We’re just trying to clear it with her French record label. That will happen. We have an amazing video of a performance we did with her at a museum in Paris. We did a whole session of music with her -- a few songs co-written with her and some more improvisational material. And a live DVD of that. We were hoping to have it out before the summer but it will probably come out by year’s end. It’d be a good stocking stuffer.
NATN: What have you been listening to lately?
TM: I just got the new record from Mary Timony. Do you know her? Her new solo album is completely mind-blowing. I’ve always liked what she did in Helium, but this record is amazing. It’s beautifully arranged strings, horn sections, and a rock band. Remarkable record. The new record by Quixotic, which is recorded almost as if it’s a field recording. This recent record by Bardo Pond -- I’ve always liked them but this new record on Homestead is great. Kim plays it a lot. Kim plays CDs. Those have been the big hits here.
NATN: It seems like Sonic Youth is sort of on the “every-two-year plan.” What is most beneficial about this schedule?
TM: I think a lot of it is dictated by our domestic situation right now. Maybe in the ‘80s when we were all single and in our 20s and 30s, as an SST band in an SST van on an SST tour, it was like throwing caution to the wind. You didn’t do album/tour, album/tour. You just did it. You’d record an album once a year if you could and you’d tour all the time. You’d take a break when you felt like you were going insane. That schedule is totally different than the one we have now, which is based around, well, we can tour when there’s no school in session. Plus, is there a demand for a new Sonic Youth record on a major-label right now? Lately, that has not been an annual occurrence! You don’t want to rush into throwing records out there that are just going to sleep. There is some attention to having a period of development. We figured when we reached our 21st year, we’d finally be an adult, legal band!
JONATHAN COHEN | Jonathan Cohen co-created Nude As The News with his Indiana University mates Troy Carpenter and Ben French. When not traversing the globe for business and pleasure, he holds down the fort as a senior editor for Billboard in New York. Stop him and he just may ask, "what for lunch?"